Forums - MvC 1/2: Tiers... Show all 68 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- MvC 1/2: Tiers... (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51593) Posted by StriderSpy on 01:13:2002 04:06 AM: MvC 1/2: Tiers... Can someone explain a little about what "tiers" actually are? I'm not fully understanding this term. Also, if it's not too much trouble can you list the top, medium, and bottom (or whatever other ranks there are) tiers for MvC1/2? Thanks- Posted by Elves=Cheating on 01:13:2002 05:33 AM: A tier is commonly defined as a group of characters, that when used by equally skilled players, give the players a relatively equal chance of winning a given match. I would ammend this by saying that the players must be playing at a high level of play (who cares who the botton mashers are winning with?). Also, many times a lower tier character has a very good match-up with a higher tier one, but this does not make the character top tier. The character must do well in many match-ups with those above them. Now for the games. . .I don't feel like using search and redirecting you to a thread, so hear is a rough idea of the MvC2 top 2 tiers: 1st: Spiral, Storm, Sentinel, Cable, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Cyclops Borderline 1st: Blackheart, Strider (People argue about these placements often, so I won't bother to take sides. On Strider, many people feel he is "the perfect character" but unfortunately, there is no perfect player). 2nd: Iron Man, War Machine, Captain Commando, Ken, Ice Man, Psylocke, Cammy, Tron Bonne, Omega Red, Dhalsim (This tier is half powerful assists that aren't good on point and half point characters that just aren't quite top tier) Some other people have characters who they would list as tier 2 and I'm sure they will. As for MvC1, your top tier is as follows: War Machine, War Machine, Wolverine, Red Venom, Strider and Chun Li (maybe, or at least top of the second tier) Second: Captain America, Hulk, Venom, Zangief MAYBE I'm sure you'll get a second opinion Posted by strider_hien on 01:13:2002 04:01 PM: quote: Originally posted by Elves=Cheating A tier is commonly defined as a group of characters, that when used by equally skilled players, give the players a relatively equal chance of winning a given match. I would ammend this by saying that the players must be playing at a high level of play (who cares who the botton mashers are winning with?). Also, many times a lower tier character has a very good match-up with a higher tier one, but this does not make the character top tier. The character must do well in many match-ups with those above them. Now for the games. . .I don't feel like using search and redirecting you to a thread, so hear is a rough idea of the MvC2 top 2 tiers: 1st: Spiral, Storm, Sentinel, Cable, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Cyclops Borderline 1st: Blackheart, Strider (People argue about these placements often, so I won't bother to take sides. On Strider, many people feel he is "the perfect character" but unfortunately, there is no perfect player). 2nd: Iron Man, War Machine, Captain Commando, Ken, Ice Man, Psylocke, Cammy, Tron Bonne, Omega Red, Dhalsim (This tier is half powerful assists that aren't good on point and half point characters that just aren't quite top tier) Some other people have characters who they would list as tier 2 and I'm sure they will. As for MvC1, your top tier is as follows: War Machine, War Machine, Wolverine, Red Venom, Strider and Chun Li (maybe, or at least top of the second tier) Second: Captain America, Hulk, Venom, Zangief MAYBE I'm sure you'll get a second opinion For mvc1 top tier, you put war machine twice. I think you mean War Machine and GOLD war machine. Chun Li is 2nd tier, and regular venom is top tier. so the tier list would be Strider, Wolvie, WM, GWM, Red Venom, Venom It's arguable that Hulk is top tier. Posted by [MB2K]Mizter Ed on 01:13:2002 04:59 PM: Some people feel that tiers don't mean shit. The reason is that someone could have a "low tier" character and be really good with them. Example: I was playing in a tournament with my best team Amingo, Anakaris, and Juggs. Everyone in the tournament considered them to be "low tier" but after the tournament they said "those guys aren't low tier the way you play with them." So therefore everyone has their own opinions on high and low tier characters. Posted by FMJaguar on 01:13:2002 07:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by [MB2K]Mizter Ed Some people feel that tiers don't mean shit. The reason is that someone could have a "low tier" character and be really good with them. Example: I was playing in a tournament with my best team Amingo, Anakaris, and Juggs. Everyone in the tournament considered them to be "low tier" but after the tournament they said "those guys aren't low tier the way you play with them." So therefore everyone has their own opinions on high and low tier characters. What people say in some tourney has nothing to to with tiers. The simple fact is if a top player went to a local tourney, he could convince everyone that team shoto is top tier in MvC2, when in fact he's just a better player. The biggest challenge in making tiers is seperating the character from the player. The reason tiers DO matter, is that if you pick a lower tier character, you are almost required to develop a *specific* strategy vs top tier characters, whereas top tier characters have a general strength that is good vs all characters. In no way did i say that the lower tiered char should just lose all the time, i just said that it affects how you prepare. If a lower tiered character wins, it doesn't mean that we underestimated it and said it would never be good (as people like to accuse), in fact we probably helped the player, by alerting them to the problem matchups they would have. Winning alone doesn't make a character top tier, you have to be able to talk about how it deals with all the top tier matchups as well as some general strategy that works in just about every situation. MvC2 tiers thread - http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...?threadid=37469 Posted by Elves=Cheating on 01:14:2002 02:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by strider_hien For mvc1 top tier, you put war machine twice. I think you mean War Machine and GOLD war machine. Chun Li is 2nd tier, and regular venom is top tier. so the tier list would be Strider, Wolvie, WM, GWM, Red Venom, Venom It's arguable that Hulk is top tier. Actually, I'm positive thats what I meant, but I knew the people would know that the game has 2 war machines and that one of them had a golden color to him. Plus, I just think of them as one character, even though people do pick them seperately, from time to time and they aren't just palette swaps. As for regular Venom being top tier. . . I just don't think he beats the others. But whatever. He's good. Posted by cyber_akuma2002 on 01:14:2002 06:04 AM: Your all wrong about the tiers in mvc,everybody knows it's ryu because look you get the whole shoto package in one character.And he does awesome damage if i may say so. Mvc2 i'd have to say........ iron man storm magneto sentinel cable (you know it) dr doom strider (only because he's got doom to back him up) and ryu i speak the true people laterz........ Posted by Dasrik on 01:14:2002 09:17 PM: MvC1 tiers Top: Strider, Red Venom, War Machine, Wolverine, GWM (in that order) Upper: Hulk, Megaman, Ryu (in Ken mode), Chun-Li (no particular order) Middle: the other guys Bottom: Orange Hulk, Morrigan, Jin, Ryu (in any other mode) MvC2 tiers Top: Storm, Sentinel, Cable, Magneto, Doom, Spiral, Strider, Cyclops Upper: Blackheart, Iron Man, Guile AAA All-Stars: Commando, Psylocke, Ken, Cammy, Jin Middle: the other guys Bottom: Roll, Hayato, Dan Posted by DeathFromAbove on 01:14:2002 09:39 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik MvC1 tiers Upper: Ryu (in Ken mode) How does KenRyu rank so high? I don't remember anything special about his duos... And what about Venom? He's got the same infinite as RV, plus hella priority and some TT...doesn't he at least rank upper? quote: Upper: Blackheart, Iron Man, Guile AAA All-Stars: Commando, Psylocke, Ken, Cammy, Jin Wouldn't Guile go with the AAA All-Stars? He's nothing to sneeze at, but I don't see where he's any better at point than a Cammy or Commando. How about WM? He's not quite IM, but he's still better than most everybody else. I think he could hang with most of the AAA guys, and BH, as well. Off to overscrutinize another thread... -DFA Posted by DarkZero on 01:14:2002 09:39 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik MvC1 tiers Top: Strider, Red Venom, War Machine, Wolverine, GWM (in that order) Upper: Hulk, Megaman, Ryu (in Ken mode), Chun-Li (no particular order) Middle: the other guys Bottom: Orange Hulk, Morrigan, Jin, Ryu (in any other mode) MvC2 tiers Top: Storm, Sentinel, Cable, Magneto, Doom, Spiral, Strider, Cyclops Upper: Blackheart, Iron Man, Guile AAA All-Stars: Commando, Psylocke, Ken, Cammy, Jin Middle: the other guys Bottom: Roll, Hayato, Dan Finally, someone shows these people the true top and bottom tiers. Posted by soujiroten on 01:14:2002 10:14 PM: hey Dasrik, if memory serves (talking MvC1 here), doesn't Regular Venom fit in the Upper tier as well? Easy infinite, ridiculous priority on stand fierce and jab venom fang, etc. etc.? I don't think he was as good as the rest of the team, but I remember Spider-Dan and Viscant arguing back and forth about that a while back. --SJ Posted by Dasrik on 01:14:2002 11:14 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove How does KenRyu rank so high? I don't remember anything special about his duos... Glitch on his dash (cancelling his dash with an attack makes Ryu pop out a few steps forward of where he should) makes his rushdown on par with the Wolverine standard. quote: And what about Venom? He's got the same infinite as RV, plus hella priority and some TT...doesn't he at least rank upper? Venom dies pretty bad to turtles. I'm paraphrasing someone whom I don't remember (apologies), but he said "Venom doesn't do so well once people stop impaling themselves on his s.fierce". WM and RV own him, and a case could be made for Megaman as well. quote: Wouldn't Guile go with the AAA All-Stars? He's nothing to sneeze at, but I don't see where he's any better at point than a Cammy or Commando. Guile's rushdown is pretty potent once you throw in jab Sonic Booms and projectile assists on the screen. It's hard to get in when the bottom half of the screen is covered with shit and Guile can beat pretty much anything with the air flash kick on the top half. quote: How about WM? He's not quite IM, but he's still better than most everybody else. I think he could hang with most of the AAA guys, and BH, as well. Iron Man is dubious enough. Yeah, they both beat BH, and can run away effectively on Cable with a lead, but they're rather slow for rushdown. Iron Man has a slight speed advantage; more importantly, he has the Proton Cannon DHC, so I put him in upper. Posted by Ouroborus on 01:14:2002 11:24 PM: Guile is no where on the same level as BH, IM or WM. Theres some potential for Guile I know, I think hes mid to low sec tier. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 01:15:2002 01:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Glitch on his dash (cancelling his dash with an attack makes Ryu pop out a few steps forward of where he should) makes his rushdown on par with the Wolverine standard. I did not know that. Thank you. quote: Guile's rushdown is pretty potent once you throw in jab Sonic Booms and projectile assists on the screen. It's hard to get in when the bottom half of the screen is covered with shit and Guile can beat pretty much anything with the air flash kick on the top half. No argument. I think everyone should read this again. But seriously, ditto for Commando. He owns the SJ space, and his ground keepaway (w/ proj assist) can produce big damage against assist characters. No? -DFA Posted by Elves=Cheating on 01:15:2002 03:00 AM: I'm just wondering, am I the only person here who thinks Iceman is a solid second tier character, in fact, perhaps the best second tier character? He is a clean counter character for Doom and Blackheart. He doesn't "beat" Cable like I've heard people claim, but he isn't a horrible match-up for Iceman. Sentinel also has some problems, not as bad as with the Summers, but another decent match-up with a top tier. Cyclops also can't use his usual run-away patterns against him. Storm, Mags, and Strider all eat him up and Spiral beats him soundly at high level play, so he's definitely not in the top tier, but he has so many good match-ups with lower tiers as well (Guiles, who I'm still not convinced about comes first to mind). I'd argue for Dhalsim as well, but he's borderline, not worth arguing over. Iron Man I'd agree is second tier, but Iceman I would say has more match-ups in his favor, even if he also has more bad ones against him. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 01:15:2002 05:05 AM: I doubt everyone will agree on me with this, but I think in MvC2, Omega Red is a top tier (or high 2nd tier) You just need to know when to use his moves amoungst other things. War Machine is a 2nd tier as well. Yeah IM might have the PC, but WM has the War Destroyer. Posted by MJG on 01:15:2002 03:49 PM: I don't think Omega Red is top tier, but I've got to agree that he is high second tier. War Machine is also in the second tier, though I'd probably place him in the lower end of that group. Guile, while not as awful as some people think, really shouldn't be mentioned anywhere near the top. Just about any player who knows what they're doing shouldn't have too many problems with him. I'd say he'd be in the middle third tier. I'd question putting him in second, and at him being placed with BH and Iron Man. Where is Dhalsim on everyone's second tier list? Posted by cyber_akuma2002 on 01:15:2002 08:53 PM: The only reason why wm isn't up there with im is because he's sorta slow and his moves are easy to escape from like the bouncing effect with his proton cannon,and his war destroyer just dash forward and your clear from it. It all comes down to this,people want beams not missles Posted by Spider-Dan on 01:16:2002 12:29 AM: MVC1 top tier = Fab Five. We all know who they are. 2nd tier (alphabetical)= Chun, Gambit, Hulk, Venom, Zangief (arguably Megaman but I'd put him a bit lower IMO) These characters all beat up on everyone else, generally lose (to varying degrees) to Fab Five. I don't know where the hell R-Ken is coming from. Who cares about some dash combo? He can't back it up with anything, no combos, Duos suck, etc etc. As to whether or not Venom belongs in second tier, he rapes any non Fab Five character not named "Megaman" unless they have a huge lead. Give that same huge lead to Venom and that match is fucking done deal (and most other characters don't have the option of 40% throw). If both characters have similar life Venom wins. Posted by Dasrik on 01:16:2002 02:28 AM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan 2nd tier (alphabetical)= Chun, Gambit, Hulk, Venom, Zangief (arguably Megaman but I'd put him a bit lower IMO) I did forget Gambit, my bad. But is Zangief still 2nd? He doesn't get guaranteed damage off strong throw anymore, and all anyone has to do to take care of him is pick War Machine. I think Megaman is more viable than Zangief for 2nd tier. quote: I don't know where the hell R-Ken is coming from. Who cares about some dash combo? He can't back it up with anything, no combos, Duos suck, etc etc. Wolverine doesn't exactly have shining skills in a duo either, and he's top tier, right? It's hard for a lot of characters to do anything about jump-in hurricane kick, c.short -> c.forward xx DP super does as much damage as anything, and the dash IS very abusable. quote: As to whether or not Venom belongs in second tier, he rapes any non Fab Five character not named "Megaman" unless they have a huge lead. Give that same huge lead to Venom and that match is fucking done deal (and most other characters don't have the option of 40% throw). If both characters have similar life Venom wins. Yea, after thinking more about it, you are right on this. Venom does belong in the upper tier, he can sit on his leads as good as Hulk can. Posted by TS on 01:16:2002 02:54 AM: The way I view MvC2 tiers: 1 The usual suspects that everyone basically agrees on, plus Strider and Cyke, and probably BH 2 Assist people, along with Iceman, Megaman IM, WM, in roughly that order 3 Damn near everyone 4 Roll, Servebot, Dan, Gief, Hayato, in roughly that order The bulk of the cast is at varrying degrees of 3rd tier IMO. Tron = High, Bison = High, Shuma = Mid, Jill = low. There are a couple people like Ruby and WM that I can't decide if they're bottom of 2nd or top of 3rd though. WM goes no lower than the first spot in 3rd tier, Cyke goes no lower than the first spot in 2nd. Roll and Servebot may move up to low 3rd. Posted by DJTakashi on 01:16:2002 06:13 AM: What are you talking about?!?!?!? Kobun being in the bottom tier?!?!?!? I took a Kobun/Hayato/Roll team all the way to the finals at some little tourney called B5 or something I think (psst, I'm lying my ass off!!). You know you fear my giant squeaky hammer super!!! Just lunch rush that sh!t! Posted by Triv Somar on 01:16:2002 04:51 PM: Can someone explain why Wolverine was considered so great in not only MVC1 but also in X-Men, MSH, X-men Vs SF and MSH vs SF? Posted by Spider-Dan on 01:17:2002 12:36 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik I did forget Gambit, my bad. But is Zangief still 2nd? He doesn't get guaranteed damage off strong throw anymore, and all anyone has to do to take care of him is pick War Machine. All anyone has to do to beat any non-top tier character is pick any top tier character. So? quote: I think Megaman is more viable than Zangief for 2nd tier. Megaman is too vulnerable to rushdown for my liking. Beat Plane is dope, but other than Zangief and Venom I don't see him beating enough characters to hold his weight. quote: Wolverine doesn't exactly have shining skills in a duo either, and he's top tier, right? Do you seriously want to compare R-Ken to Wolverine?? Let's see, Wolvie has 50% damage corner combo, throw reset options, infinites, divekick, more damaging combo into super... meanwhile, R-Ken supposedly has a "glitch" dashing short, or something. (Viscant has been saying that for YEARS but I still don't see it.) "Glitch" or not, R-Ken's d.s.short-c.fwd "rushdown" is a joke compared to Wolvie's. Come on now. quote: It's hard for a lot of characters to do anything about jump-in hurricane kick, What game are you talking about? For purposes of comparison, all the 2nd tier characters I listed can deal with that, quite easily. quote: c.short -> c.forward xx DP super does as much damage as anything, and the dash IS very abusable. It's really not very abusable at all. You can call *Colossus* in the middle of it and Ryu is neither short enough to go under him (in the corner), nor fast enough to stuff the assist call, nor far away enough to be able to roll out of the Colossus hit. Free super. This is to say nothing of if your opponent pushblocks; R-Ken's dash is not as fast or as ranged as Wolvie's. Let's make this simpler; out of the 2nd tier I listed (Chun, Gambit, Hulk, Venom, Zangief) who does R-Ken beat? Noooobody. Posted by Spider-Dan on 01:17:2002 12:46 AM: quote: Originally posted by Triv Somar Can someone explain why Wolverine was considered so great in not only MVC1 but also in X-Men, MSH, X-men Vs SF and MSH vs SF? Different reasons. COTA: Ability to run away and build virtually infinite meter, and use that meter to either heal or guard cancel Super. MSH: Easy infinites. XSF: In version 2 he's just above average, but in version 3 everyone that was better than him got toned down, and a few of his counter-characters (Dhalsim, Jug) were very toned down, so by virtue of everyone else getting worse, he gets better (relatively) and becomes one of the top tier characters. MSF: Ability to run away and build virtually infinite meter, and use that meter to maintain indefinite speedup factor, which leads to 100% combo. MVC1: Best rushdown, devastating corner combos and throw resets. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 01:17:2002 02:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Glitch on his dash (cancelling his dash with an attack makes Ryu pop out a few steps forward of where he should) makes his rushdown on par with the Wolverine standard. OK, what's the secret to getting it consistently? When I tried this I was only seeing the extra distance about 2/5 times. And I spent money on MVC and just got to play the CPU... -DFA Posted by teammember009 on 01:20:2002 06:03 AM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan MVC1: Best rushdown, devastating corner combos and throw resets. Can you tell me his throw resetes, please? And, to Dasrik, don't you think iceman is better than guile on point? Posted by teammember009 on 01:24:2002 06:19 AM: Can you tell me Wolvie's throw resets at MvC1, please? And what's teh easy inf at XvSF? Does it works in the pSX version? thanks And, to Dasrik, don't you think iceman is better than guile on point? Posted by Remy Saotome on 01:24:2002 08:51 PM: I agree with what some of these other people have been saying: MegaMan is second tier in both MvsC1 and 2. Also, Dhalsim is definitely second tier in MvsC2. He stuffs a lot of rushdown characters. Tron Bonne is also second tier. She has a glitchy high-damaging assist, a nearly abuasable air Bonne Strike, high priority, and decent keep-away and aerial rave games. I also think that Guile needs to be lowered somewhat. I like Guile, I even use him on my classic SF team, but he isn't that great. I also think that Servbots with balance assist are the very bottom of the middle section. They can play keepaway chipping/meter building and burn meter on Variable Rush, plus they have a really fast jump-in. They own the entire bottom tier. Katta wa! Remy Saotome Posted by Dasrik on 01:24:2002 09:15 PM: IMO Guile is more solid than Iceman. Iceman's fights are lopsided and have to do pretty much with if his opponent can do any chip damage - if they can then Iceman is not coming back from a losing fight. Guile + projectile assist (esp. Sentinel) can always do well. Posted by KaiSing on 01:25:2002 06:47 AM: I think Ryu is a lot higher than that in MvC1. Hell, he still had the hurricane glitch back then, a good beam super that wasn't overshadowed by AHVB, and high damaging corner combos. Either way, i think tiers matter a lot less in MvC1 than they do in MvC2. Still, Ryu/Ken was nothing compared to Ken in MvC2. Ryu's shinryuken had almost zero priority against jump ins Posted by TheGreaterForce on 01:25:2002 12:28 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik MvC2 tiers Bottom: Hayato That's where your wrong my friend... Posted by shotzidog on 01:25:2002 10:12 PM: Pretell exactly what is wrong with Hayato???? Why is Hayato on bottom tier? Why in gods name is he on the bottom tier?!!? Ok ill admit it, his defense isnt that great, infact sometimes it is unbearable, but akuma has shit for defense and lots of people like him. So why do you people hate hayato so much? He has decent Anti-Air, plenty of combos, good specials (black hayato anyone?) and the plasma field special lets you do as many as you want. Have any of you actually been Hayato, or is this some urban legend thats been passed down from one player to the next. WTF? He's better than tons of people on the so called "3rd tier" (charlie, sabretooth, bb hood, i could go on, believe me). And plus he looks cool too. Posted by Kid Wonder on 01:28:2002 10:15 PM: Let me break it down for you Hayato players. It's kinda like CvS on SNK groove. People start abusing that unlimited supers thing and people get past it and punish lag. Especially with Ryu. Shinkuu hadokens all day! Back to Hayato: all you have to do is SJ over his "unlimited" supers cause they aint worth it anyway. The black hayato is NOT unblockable!! What can be the use of it? It's like Morrigan's on CvS!! Well except you have assists to back it up. But who's dumb enough to get hit with a bubble assist or any like assist anyway? He takes damage like a ho! Difference with Gouki and Hayato: Gouki: Usable glitch. Hayato: Nope. Gouki: His special fk hurricane kick xx qcf pp (( forgive me on lack of not knowing the name )) combo Hayato: What is that combo? Wp, mp, qcf pp? Gouki: Speed. Hayato: Not really. Gouki: Barely any lag on supers. Hayato: Too much lag. Gouki: Keep-away. Hayato: NONE. Gouki: Deals great damage. Hayato: NO. I believe he has the weakest level 3 in the game. He is pathetic. It's a toss-up between him and Roll. O/T: My tier list: (( *sigh* I hate doing this )) Top: #1. Storm/Sent. #3. Mags. #4. Spiral/SCable (( "S" standing for scrub. Old thing. )) #6. Doom. #7. BH. #8. Abyss. (( DC )) Toss/up for near top: Cammy. Ironman. Psylocke. 2nd High: (( Any order )) Ken. Cykes. Capcomm. Iceman. 2nd Mid: (( Any order )) Guile. Jin. Jugz. Rockman (( w/ back-up assist )) 2nd Low: (( Any order )) Strider/Doom. D.Sakura. 3rd: (( not much of an order )) Jill. Rouge. SilSam. Anakaris. Bulletta. CapAm. Charlie. Chun-li. Colossus. Felicia. Dhalsim (( Low 3rd )) Gambit. Hulk. Morrigan. Omega Red. Ruby Heart. Ryu. Gouki. Spiderman. (( Low )) SonSon. (( High )) Tron. Venom. War Machine. 4th: #1.Kobun. #2.Vega. #3.Thanos. #4.Wolvs. #6.Shuma. #7.Sabretooth. (( Maybe higher since he has a trap with Spiral )) #8.Marrow. #9.Gief. #10.Amingo. 5th: #1.Dan. #2.Hayato, Roll. Posted by Dasrik on 01:28:2002 10:51 PM: Re: Pretell exactly what is wrong with Hayato???? quote: Originally posted by shotzidog Why is Hayato on bottom tier? Why in gods name is he on the bottom tier?!!? Ok ill admit it, his defense isnt that great, infact sometimes it is unbearable, but akuma has shit for defense and lots of people like him. So why do you people hate hayato so much? He has decent Anti-Air, plenty of combos, good specials (black hayato anyone?) and the plasma field special lets you do as many as you want. Have any of you actually been Hayato, or is this some urban legend thats been passed down from one player to the next. WTF? He's better than tons of people on the so called "3rd tier" (charlie, sabretooth, bb hood, i could go on, believe me). And plus he looks cool too. Hayato has no mobility at all. He gets owned by even the simplest keepaway. As far as rushdown goes, he's pretty sad too. Sabretooth is way shitty in MvC2, but he's faster than Hayato. And Charlie and BBHood being worse than Hayato? You've got to be kidding me - they have slow fireballs and high-priority moves, so they can put the pressure on - something Hayato is totally incapable of. If a character can get owned by Blackheart solo, that should show that they're pretty damn crappy. Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 01:29:2002 12:36 AM: dude!!!...honestly now i know you guys dont like hayato but for pete sakes why do you have to act like hes the worst guy in the fucking game!!!!...arrrhhhh......hayato is good...he just needs the right assists..... Posted by DeathFromAbove on 01:29:2002 01:48 AM: Kid Wonder: Your tier list is crappy. I get the feeling you have no idea what to do with some of these characters. Strider in low 2nd tier? BH a full tier above Cyclops? Dhalsim in low 3rd? And my personal favorite...Kobun is one place above Bison?!?! Congratulations, you win the stupid post of the week award! -DFA Posted by Cletus Kasady on 01:29:2002 03:17 AM: quote: Originally posted by teammember009 Can you tell me Wolvie's throw resets at MvC1, please? And what's teh easy inf at XvSF? Does it works in the pSX version? thanks Infinite in XSF: J.Short -> J.Forward -> J.Roundhouse in corner during FS It has plenty of setups in the corner. - S.Jab -> S.Short -> S.Strong XX BBX - AC XX Up-Diagonal Drill Claw, SJ.Jab -> SJ.Short -> SJ.Fierce -> SJ.Roundhouse The main throw reset in MVC1 is anything that puts them into FS in the corner, C.Short (OTG) -> S.Forward x2 -> C.Fierce, Jump and Throw. BBX combo sets this up hella well (As if that didn't do enough damage on its own), as does AC into Stomp Kick -> Roundhouse. Is xsf.webjump.com still around in some form, because that had every XSF infinite known at the time. quote: War Machine is a 2nd tier as well. Yeah IM might have the PC, but WM has the War Destroyer. You've got to be joking. War Destroyer was raped hard. It doesn't do half the chip damage anymore and it's even more vulnerable and doesn't damage well. Hell, there aren't anymore Duos, where War Destroyer was best (Filled the screen from above). Only thing WM has going for him in MVC2 over Iron Man is faster Smart Bombs and C.Fierce Beam. Posted by State of Nature on 01:29:2002 04:32 AM: quote: Originally posted by KaiSing Either way, i think tiers matter a lot less in MvC1 than they do in MvC2. Actually that's not really defensible. In MvC2 you can choose your favorite character, and as long as you plan your team dynamics well and have good assists/dhcs and strong teammates, make your character playable. In MvC1, if you liked certain characters like Spiderman or Morrigan, you couldn't use them even if you teamed them with strong helper and strong teammate. You would just lose automatically in a tournament. Joey Zaza can make Double wolvie playable, and Justin can win with some weird ass teams, but you can't do that at high levels in MvC1. Tiers limit your choices to a much higher degree in MvC1 than 2. Posted by Goldfish24k on 01:29:2002 01:51 PM: Alright, Hayato MAY just be the worst character in the game, but he does have at least 3 things that will, if not make him competitive, take an opponent by surprise: 1. The one plasma combo he has with the low attack...This sucker catches so many people off guard. Afterward, while the opponent gets popped into the air, either do the sword beam super or dash in and OTG into an air combo (or use a helper to finish the combo) 2. His jumping Lk is a nasty cross-up. When paired with Tron, the damage he can do from this is devastating (while they're getting hit by Tron, chain into a standing Fierce, Rushing Sword special, cancel into a rushing sword super) 3. His rushing sword assist is very Collossus-like-if the opponent whiffs a move, they're gonna get hit by it, giving you a free Proton Cannon/AHVB X3/Sentinel Force. My fun team is Hayato/Cable/Tron...Half the time, they don't even see the assist coming... Posted by Remy Saotome on 01:29:2002 03:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Kid Wonder: Your tier list is crappy. I get the feeling you have no idea what to do with some of these characters. Strider in low 2nd tier? BH a full tier above Cyclops? Dhalsim in low 3rd? And my personal favorite...Kobun is one place above Bison?!?! Congratulations, you win the stupid post of the week award! -DFA Agreed. Posted by Vance on 01:29:2002 10:13 PM: Here's the only tier I need to know for MvC1. Top: Strider, War Machine, Gold War Machine, Venom, and Red Venom. Middle: Everyone else. With Gambit up on top because I like his style. ... the very bottom: Roll. Shame on any of you if you lose in MvC1 against Roll and Lilith, with Lou as helper. Posted by Dasrik on 01:29:2002 10:54 PM: quote: Originally posted by Vance Top: Strider, War Machine, Gold War Machine, Venom, and Red Venom. Middle: Everyone else. With Gambit up on top because I like his style. the very bottom: Roll. Shame on any of you if you lose in MvC1 against Roll and Lilith, with Lou as helper. No. 1. Roll is good. She's hard to combo, has throw reset combos, can chip for free with Beat Plane and a decent few abusable normals. Lilith is okay, too, but only with Strider. The worst character IMO is Orange Hulk. 2. Lou is the best helper in the game. 3. Gambit should go below Hulk, Chun-Li, Zangief, and (debatedly) Megaman. 4. Venom is not top tier. Where's Wolverine? Posted by TS on 01:29:2002 11:07 PM: Re: Pretell exactly what is wrong with Hayato???? quote: Originally posted by shotzidog Why is Hayato on bottom tier? Why in gods name is he on the bottom tier?!!? Ok ill admit it, his defense isnt that great, infact sometimes it is unbearable, but akuma has shit for defense and lots of people like him. So why do you people hate hayato so much? He has decent Anti-Air, plenty of combos, good specials (black hayato anyone?) and the plasma field special lets you do as many as you want. Have any of you actually been Hayato, or is this some urban legend thats been passed down from one player to the next. WTF? He's better than tons of people on the so called "3rd tier" (charlie, sabretooth, bb hood, i could go on, believe me). And plus he looks cool too. to summarize: Akuma is quicker, has better combos, has better assists, does more damage, has better specials, and has better supers. Only thing Hayato has over him is stamina. Posted by Iceman on 01:29:2002 11:11 PM: To add to what TS said, (as is the case for many character comparisions) all Hayato's extra stamina does is delay the inevitable, dying. That's why character stamina (having really great like Zangief, or really bad like Strider, now who's a better character?) sometimes gets overrated. Posted by Vance on 01:29:2002 11:21 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik No. 1. Roll is good. She's hard to combo, has throw reset combos, can chip for free with Beat Plane and a decent few abusable normals. Lilith is okay, too, but only with Strider. The worst character IMO is Orange Hulk. 2. Lou is the best helper in the game. 3. Gambit should go below Hulk, Chun-Li, Zangief, and (debatedly) Megaman. 4. Venom is not top tier. Where's Wolverine? In response to #3, you're right. Gambit shouldn't be that high. I'm just being biased, sorry. But #4, I'm not so sure about that Wolverine guy being at the very top. He doesn't have the UMPH that he had back in MSHvsSF, and without it he's far too predictable and counterable to just make it at the top. And Venom at the top is a serious judgment call as well. In response to #1, if you look at my avatar you'll notice that Roll is one of my favorite characters to use in MvC1 (particularly with Megaman and Lou as helper!) I love picking apart Wolvie/Strider teams or even occasionally toppling over War Machine based teams with Team Midget. But Orange Hulk, worst character? Why? Please explain further, I'd like to hear about it. Finally, in response to #2, no matter how good Lou is, a Roll/Lilith/Lou team doesn't have a lot of applications to it. Posted by Kid Wonder on 01:30:2002 01:25 AM: "Kid Wonder: Your tier list is crappy. I get the feeling you have no idea what to do with some of these characters. Strider in low 2nd tier? BH a full tier above Cyclops? Dhalsim in low 3rd? And my personal favorite...Kobun is one place above Bison?!?! Congratulations, you win the stupid post of the week award! " If you're going to use Japanese names at least stick with it. pfft. Four mistakes and the list is crappy? That's asinine! I meant Stri-DOOM to be HIGH 2nd but I changed the list. Cykes: Any character I see that's used mostly as an assist I don't think they are really top tier. BH is used more and on point then Cykes is. Dhalsim isn't THAT good. I haven't seen any good players. Run-away doesn't win a match at ALL. You must attack FIRST! He takes more chip damage than most characters. How? In air combos people sometimes make mistakes and the opponent drops to the ground. Not him! His assist sets him up for alot of things since he teleports back in place after getting hit. SCREEEEW Vega! That fat, luggish oaf can blow me! That last comment was childish and stupid!! Take that to GameFAQs Posted by Roundhouse on 01:30:2002 02:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by Vance But #4, I'm not so sure about that Wolverine guy being at the very top. He doesn't have the UMPH that he had back in MSHvsSF, and without it he's far too predictable and counterable to just make it at the top. Search for mt's TT and you'll probably change your mind Posted by Iceman on 01:30:2002 03:31 AM: Kid Wonder, welcome to shoryuken.com. Please, feel welcome to use all the resources you find here. You have much to learn. Posted by Blackheart2097 on 01:30:2002 04:11 AM: why is orange hulk ranked lower than regular hulk? well when i did play this game chun li was definately top tier in my opinion. just infinite that shit. and i could mash her super and get serious amount of hits. chun li and captain was my old team. Posted by strider_hien on 01:30:2002 05:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by Roundhouse Search for mt's TT and you'll probably change your mind I agree that Throw Tactics is a godly tactic. But how many of us (apart from MT) can honestly say that they know all the angles of the moves, and know the right frames in which to throw a person? By theory this works, but in a tournament, can someone do tt under pressure? Posted by Dasrik on 01:30:2002 05:42 AM: Even without TT, Wolverine is still a monster. Fast dash, mean low jab and short that goes into a damaging combo, excellent mobility AND he still has the best throw range in the game which can help him beat turtlers even without mastering the TT. As a regular player of Orange Hulk I can attest that aside from the huge range he has on his jabs, he sucks. Large size without super armor, slow speed, no good combos, and weak-ass stamina. Top tier eats him, upper tier gets the leftovers. Lou does a lot for a team. Inpenetrable anti-air and ground coverage; outside of Y-Sentinel's use as a human wall for air-to-ground projectiles, Lou is pretty much used like the big robot. And you get eight uses. The team you mentioned is bad, but can do more than, say, Captain America/Ryu with Anita assist. Kid Wonder: Shut up - you are talking out your ass. Dhalsim takes same chip damage as everyone else, and that teleport recovery helps him loads on Magneto (no combo resets), plus he has long limbs to get the hits he needs. Cyclops is pretty much the best AAA and his tight endgame is what makes him top tier. Finally, your "stick to the Japanese names" complaints just reeks of scrub. Thank you, drive through. BH2097: Chun Li has no infinite; at least, not one that works on anyone smart enough not to jump back into the corner and let you hit them with that impractical bob infinite. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 01:30:2002 07:32 AM: Kid Wonder: Here is what 'Sim can do: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...&threadid=12742 Here is what Cyclops can do: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...&threadid=25583 Here is where BH falls short: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...&threadid=51435 http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...&threadid=37469 Time to catch up on your reading!!! -DFA Posted by BshidoHEAT on 01:30:2002 05:18 PM: quote: Originally posted by Cletus Kasady You've got to be joking. War Destroyer was raped hard. It doesn't do half the chip damage anymore and it's even more vulnerable and doesn't damage well. Hell, there aren't anymore Duos, where War Destroyer was best (Filled the screen from above). Only thing WM has going for him in MVC2 over Iron Man is faster Smart Bombs and C.Fierce Beam. War Destoryer is just as good as the PC, IMHO. The War Destroyer takes out run away like crazy, Storm can't run away too long. Cable can't SJ.FP, bomb it safely. So it's anti-run away. PC is good. And it has it's advantages, but so does the WD. Darsik, I used to play MvC1, and was quite good at it. Can you give me some strats against a rushdown crazy Chun-Li/Wolv/Colossus team? BTW, I use War Machine and someone else (people like Gambit, Venom, CapAm, CapCom). And Lou. PS-I know Lou is a good assist, but, I only used it on my joke teams. What can Lou do? Posted by strider_hien on 01:30:2002 05:50 PM: quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT What can Lou do? Dasrik posted something on it 2 posts back. Dasrik- Got any tips on GWM? I have no idea how to use him. Posted by Remy Saotome on 01:30:2002 09:31 PM: Yeah, what can GWM do? Back when I still played MvsC1, I was able to own all the GWM users. He can't even block! I'm not saying he isn't top tier, I'm saying that I don't have enough knowledge on the subject and would like to be enlightened. Posted by Blackheart2097 on 01:31:2002 12:39 AM: BH2097: Chun Li has no infinite; at least, not one that works on anyone smart enough not to jump back into the corner and let you hit them with that impractical bob infinite. [/B][/QUOTE] the infinite that the guy was doing his opponent wasn't in the corner. he was in mid screen. he launched and did the infinite. i not sure what infinite your talking about but the one the kid was doing the opponent can be anywhere. Posted by Kid Wonder on 01:31:2002 04:35 AM: Kid Wonder: Shut up - you are talking out your ass. Dhalsim takes same chip damage as everyone else, and that teleport recovery helps him loads on Magneto (no combo resets), plus he has long limbs to get the hits he needs. Cyclops is pretty much the best AAA and his tight endgame is what makes him top tier. Finally, your "stick to the Japanese names" complaints just reeks of scrub. Thank you, drive through. Cykes infinite is the best? What inane planet are you from!?! Shut scrubbyness out of your mind. "Thank you, drive through."!?! Back to Cykes...does he help out Mags too much? Storm? Rushdown? Not really. STFU! Complaints? That's just exaggerating sensitivity coming out of you. I could've sworn I only made ONE TRUE statement about his false Japanese. Posted by Kid Wonder on 01:31:2002 04:45 AM: DeathfromAbove....thanks. But you sent me two Cykes topics. Unless that's what you meant. I didn't read the whole thing. I'm about too...darn Viscant posts......soooooo long! >> : Þ Posted by Strike on 01:31:2002 05:37 AM: Lou, Psylocke, and Colossus are the top assists. It depends on who your opponent uses. You definitely want Psylocke if the other guy has Red Venom. Colossus is a movable shield giving you a free super if he hits. Lou is a wall with his arrows and fire. Chun doesn't have an infinite, but her semi-infinite with her stomp is a GREAT time waster. That's the only reason you'd do it anyway. Her stomp is a good jump in too, land it and you got a super. Dasrik, didn't you used to promote Shadow Lady on GPOW? I think you said her missles were good against GMW. But that was ages ago, so I have no clue what the game is like now. Most of this is just from memory when info was being posted at Gouki's Page of Stuff message boards. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 01:31:2002 06:30 AM: quote: Originally posted by Kid Wonder DeathfromAbove....thanks. But you sent me two Cykes topics. Unless that's what you meant. I didn't read the whole thing. I'm about too...darn Viscant posts......soooooo long! >> : Þ Damn Windows copy/paste functions... http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...&threadid=51435 http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...&threadid=37469 Posted by Kid Wonder on 01:31:2002 06:39 AM: Oh THAT topic. Read half of it....got to get back to it though. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 01:31:2002 06:43 AM: quote: Originally posted by Kid Wonder Cykes infinite is the best? What inane planet are you from!?! Shut scrubbyness out of your mind. It's up for debate, but it's easier than the Mags infinites, can be done anywhere, ended with a super+DHC, and is easier to set up than the IM/WM inf. Cyke infi to SOB XX Hailstorm is 100%. quote: Back to Cykes...does he help out Mags too much? Storm? Rushdown? Not really. STFU! Cyclops is, IMO, Storm's favorite assist. With him, anytime she can force a block on the ground (dash S.HK, anyone?),the opponent is left with the choice of: (1)call assist, have it stuffed by Cyke, then eat Hailstorm. (2)not call assist, and be triangle jumped/thrown. Assist calling rules vary against point Cable & some assists. This can also be applied to Mags & rushdown in general. Also, Storm/Cyke has keepaway patterns that own half the cast, and render most 2 on 1 fights academic. quote: Complaints? That's just exaggerating sensitivity coming out of you. I could've sworn I only made ONE TRUE statement about his false Japanese. Who gives a damn? I don't have to be consistent. I think of Bison as Bison; Vega is the guy with the claw to me. I think of Kobun as Kobun, it differentiates him from the other 39 Servbots. Yeesh. Not that it matters. You might want to search the old topics in the forums a bit more, Wonderbread. You'll figure out pretty quickly who's for real, and who's blowing hot air. Dasrik is pretty accurate most of the time (MSF CapAM is still top tier, you hear me?). -DFA Posted by Iceman on 01:31:2002 07:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by Kid Wonder Cykes infinite is the best? What inane planet are you from!?! Shut scrubbyness out of your mind. "Thank you, drive through."!?! Back to Cykes...does he help out Mags too much? Storm? Rushdown? Not really. STFU! Complaints? That's just exaggerating sensitivity coming out of you. I could've sworn I only made ONE TRUE statement about his false Japanese. I don't recall anyone calling Cyke's infinite the best. It's top 5 in usefulness, but probably not the best (DFA makes a decent case for it). Cyke's AAA is probably the 2nd best for Magneto (after Psylocke), better for Storm than Psylocke imo (but debatable if it's better than Ken or even Cammy for her), and top 3 or 4 for Sentinel (Capcom is #1, then it's between Cable, Ken, Cyclops, Cammy, and one could even argue for Psylocke, imo he's #2 for Sent). Not to mention Cyclops is probably #1 AAA (definatly top 2) for Cable, real good for Doom, top 2 or 3 for Blackheart, great for Iron Man (Psylocke sets up the infinite better, but Cyclops does set up air combos and possibly infinites), great for Dhalsim (at worst free jumping roundhouses whenever he hits) decent for Strider (behold as they fall into Orb trap), etc. He's great for just about everyone. Plus he's a MUCH better point character than Capcom, Psylocke, Cammy or Ken. Cyclops is great for his solid point game, solid "endgame" (aka 1 on 1) and top 3 or top 5 AAA. Posted by achamp on 02:01:2002 11:08 AM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove It's up for debate, but it's easier than the Mags infinites, can be done anywhere, ended with a super+DHC, and is easier to set up than the IM/WM inf. Cyke infi to SOB XX Hailstorm is 100%. How do I connect the SOB after Cyc's inf?thanks Posted by Vance on 02:01:2002 04:47 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik And you get eight uses. The team you mentioned is bad, but can do more than, say, Captain America/Ryu with Anita assist. Yes, this is true. Ryu/Captain America just doesn't make any sense to me, regardless of helper. But while we're talking about MvC1 helpers in this thread, what MvC1 tiered teams can use Anita effectively? I always wondered what Anita was for Posted by Dasrik on 02:02:2002 12:05 AM: Okay, to answer various questions posted here: Gold War Machine: Basic gameplan alternates between jump forward fierce and superjump, float with [smart bombs, shoulder cannon] x3. When you get to playing with GWM, you'll learn when to avoid things that hurt GWM and when to take hits and punish with the Duo. For instance, frequent scrub "counter" to GWM is Chun-Li, but her Kikoushou has so much startup lag that you can c.roundhouse or j.fierce it before she starts, or just take to the air and float (knee dive will bounce off of Kikoushou, BTW, without taking much damage). Alternately, you can choose to take the puffball hit, then call a Duo before the final (most damaging) hit, blow through Chun in her recovery and kill her. GWM's only real problem fight is Captain Commando - he gets Corridors for free in most situations, and you absolutely can't do anything that keeps you on the ground for more than a second's time or eat Captain Sword (which will eat WD's missiles and smack you). He has issues on the Hulks too (they get to hit him with s.fierce and superjump cancel so GWM can't retaliate; plus, Gamma Quake and Crush are great weapons on him), and Wolverine can shave off a lot of life fast if he gets close. BH2097: It's a semi-infinite that ends once you reach the corner - launch, SJ.Jab -> SJ.Short -> SJ.Strong -> SJ.DN+Forward, [SJ.Short -> SJ.Strong -> SJ.DN+Forward] x inf. The damage the whole thing (outside of the corner) does isn't worth the fingerwork, but you can do it for four or five times to build some meter. Strike: Devilot gets honorable mentions (too good with Strider), and in actuality most of the assists have uses. They're mainly setups and good to force your opponent to do something. If you want I can talk about the lesser-used assists... For Vance: Anita is probably the worst assist. You can use it to add some chip damage while keeping them in place, or to force someone to superjump. But her junk can be hit and canceled before she even throws it (and it doesn't do damage until the junk is thrown), so if you're getting rushed down, she's totally useless. About Shadow Lady, she can be a mild annoyance to GWM, but nothing more than that. She gets free missiles when GWM superjumps, but they do nil damage. You can also use lightning legs to get some hits once GWM gets close, but you got to have mashing skills. Besides, Shadow Lady is only really good as a closing character anyway, and if GWM's partner dies before he does, the match is yours anyway. If your mind is in the right place, she could probably get away with a win or two on a decent GWM player before he adapts. I still use Shadow Lady, though. You can't beat the ShaLa/Lou trap as a way to make a winning match even more boring than usual. Posted by bl3hbl3h on 02:04:2002 12:30 AM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan Different reasons. COTA: Ability to run away and build virtually infinite meter, and use that meter to either heal or guard cancel Super. MSH: Easy infinites. XSF: In version 2 he's just above average, but in version 3 everyone that was better than him got toned down, and a few of his counter-characters (Dhalsim, Jug) were very toned down, so by virtue of everyone else getting worse, he gets better (relatively) and becomes one of the top tier characters. MSF: Ability to run away and build virtually infinite meter, and use that meter to maintain indefinite speedup factor, which leads to 100% combo. MVC1: Best rushdown, devastating corner combos and throw resets. additional reasons here COTA: easy dizzy combos which include a few easy 100% (or close) damage combos not to mention one of the best throws in the game and the ability to juggle after many of his hits XSF: simple infinite, probably the best comboing in the game and like a fullscreen dash MSF: what the guy above said MVC: what the guy above said All times are GMT. The time now is 12:23 AM. Show all 68 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.